I find it extraordinarily hard to make new friends as a married dad. I am making some new friendships at church through my work as the treasurer. It’s a bit ironic because as a gay teen the church wasn’t a safe welcoming space for me.
Same. Pretty much everyone I know who has a lot of friends as an adult built those relationships while they were single. Dating plugged them into social circles that in some cases survived post-marriage.
This topic is constantly on my mind, for the reasons you've outlined here.
I wonder: Is possible to create or find new institutions that genuinely appeal to people in the 21st century, or is the only option to return to traditional institutions (in America: Christianity)? If it's the latter, what's a person supposed to do if they no longer believe the central tenets of Christianity? I sense that most people *want* to feel a sense of belonging, but being forced to ascribe to worldview from the 1st century AD is increasingly a dealbreaker in the age of online information. Maybe the Nordic countries offer some notion of a way forward here, as they seem(?) to have a sense of belonging while not ascribing to a traditional Christian worldview?
We should meet up to discuss! But yeah, I wonder about this too. I don't think it's likely to be Christianity at the society level. If you plot the growth/shrinkage of extant religions on a graph, I just see no evidence that they're going to somehow regain their foothold. I think even a large, "come to Jesus" crisis moment would not literally drive people to Jesus, but would probably drive them to some other community at this point.
That said, I think individuals can probably solve the problem for themselves by turning to religion or some other existing institution. Will their kids be Christians in three or four generations? Perhaps not, but my thinking is that people will be better off in the short term (a life time or two) if they belong to something. And I think that being forced to adopt a worldview (whatever it may be) may be a feature, not a bug. Pressing everyone into a conformed mold is what allows the community to exist.
All of that said, I think the family is the answer. We see in society after society the organizing force starts with the family, and its often from the family that religion emerges (eg ancestor worship). Moving from the loose family connections we have now to a stronger, tribe model seems easier than trying to invent something entire new.
The Nordic countries are interesting, but I will say that I'm generally a skeptic. They are tiny populations (like, smaller than the Los Angeles metro area) with mostly ethnically homogenous populations. They also have tons of cash because, in some cases, like half their GDP is based on extractive industries like oil production and timber. I think if you start removing any piece of that equation it starts falling apart, which we're sort of seeing with all the push back there to immigration. I might be biased because I think northern European countries have been particularly aggressive at dismantling traditional institutions (religion, family), and because I see Southern Europe (Italy, Spain) as the ideal for living a good life, but it's hard for me to see how the Nordic countries could scale up to an actually diverse country like the US. But I could be wrong!
Yes, I'd love to meet up to discuss! I'll message you about that.
Questions I need to research: Do Italy and Spain have majorities that ascribe to traditional belief and practice? Do families need shared beliefs to maintain cohesion at the level of the extended family? (I've felt more distant from my extended family ever since I started expressing how my worldview has shifted, but I'm not sure if that distance is because of that or just because it's difficult to maintain closeness when everyone gets older and has too many kids to fit in one place anymore.) Are there beliefs that could be more appealing to a 21st century mindset, and what might those be?
And Jon, yeah, great questions. I should say that my preference for S. Europe may just be a cultural preference that I let color my view of unrelated things. Like, I love that the Spanish have boisterous four hour dinners at 10 pm etc. I have probably let the films of Fellini have more influence on me than is necessary lol. And so I may be looking at reasons to justify why I like those cultures so much, vs for example the Swedes who according to internet memes will apparently refuse to even offer you food if you visit them ha. What jerks!
That said, I do think that while religion is in decline in those areas, they are more tied to their institutions. Most Italians I've met still consider themselves catholics, even if they rarely attend, while that isn't necessarily the case for the northern Europeans I've met.
It's an interesting question about shared beliefs. Maybe a community is created by a shared overton window? Like, you can dissent with the group and still be a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Democrat or a member of academia of whatever. But you can't dissent TOO much.
The Jewish perspective is interesting here, because it's all of these things but doesn't require all of these things to feel/ be Jewish and consider yourself a member of a/the community: a religion, a culture, a race. And then, even being "religious," going to temple, observing the commandments, etc., isn't always tethered to theology/ faith in the divine. I know many people who live a very Jewish life, but are agnostic/ sometimes even atheistic.
I think a big part of Jewish continuity in the last 100 years, but also for centuries even if they would have never used this language, is the porousness btw "culturally Jewish" and "religiously Jewish." People who are "culturally Jewish" still observe many holidays, and look towards institutions and traditions to ground their faith. But there is tons of creativity there, and without a central authority on the right/wrong way to do these things, that creativity is welcome in the grand scheme of things. And then there's the long tradition of dissent, question asking etc., as a big part of the Jewish meaning-making process...
Now don't get me wrong, the Jewish leaders consider Jews in a crisis in terms of participation in Jewish life... and lots of hang-wringing about the Jewish future in all directions...and this anxiety preceded the horrific, and deeply shameful for me, war happening, and the soul-searching and divisions its creating. So nobody has figured it all out. Certainly not us!
But I think the often effective blurring/ separation of culture and religion is relevant to other faith groups in how to bring some of the good parts of religion into the 21st century.
Last thought: I have met many people in the US from Latin America who feel similarly about Catholicism. They say it feels both cultural and religious--that fluidity is alive and keeps them engaged.
Super fascinating thoughts here. Honestly I think the way the Jewish world handles cultural vs religious identity is really enviable. I wish I was part of a community that had that. My background is in Mormonism, and while I'm sort of half in-half out of that, I don't think you can be a multigenerational cultural Mormon. Everyone who leaves, is fully gone — which I think is a shame. But I have noticed similar things re: catholicism.
Great piece!! I’ve really enjoyed your writing. I became a Christian at 18 and started going to church. It took a long time to get used to church life, but serving with other people to run bible studies and playgroups has created wide networks and deep connections with others that I would not have had otherwise. I’m a clinical psychologist in Australia and I frequently see people who are achingly lonely. I spend a lot of time encouraging them to join things, to show up, to love on others. We have to give in order to get. Connection can’t be delivered to your door.
Probably all the stuff you already know. There’s good evidence about forming friendships that’s especially important as an adult—it requires regular contact, so even if one time is terrible it doesn’t matter, and membership/being part of things/belonging. It’s the C.S. Lewis observation that I’ll mangle, that friendship is you both looking at a task together, not looking at each other. That’s why we make a lot of friendships in school and sports. It’s not all hanging on one glorious moment of banter. It’s what you captured in your article. Sometimes it’s just less sexy than that, just regularly turning up when you can’t be bothered. It’s making service and presence a priority.
I find it extraordinarily hard to make new friends as a married dad. I am making some new friendships at church through my work as the treasurer. It’s a bit ironic because as a gay teen the church wasn’t a safe welcoming space for me.
Same. Pretty much everyone I know who has a lot of friends as an adult built those relationships while they were single. Dating plugged them into social circles that in some cases survived post-marriage.
This topic is constantly on my mind, for the reasons you've outlined here.
I wonder: Is possible to create or find new institutions that genuinely appeal to people in the 21st century, or is the only option to return to traditional institutions (in America: Christianity)? If it's the latter, what's a person supposed to do if they no longer believe the central tenets of Christianity? I sense that most people *want* to feel a sense of belonging, but being forced to ascribe to worldview from the 1st century AD is increasingly a dealbreaker in the age of online information. Maybe the Nordic countries offer some notion of a way forward here, as they seem(?) to have a sense of belonging while not ascribing to a traditional Christian worldview?
We should meet up to discuss! But yeah, I wonder about this too. I don't think it's likely to be Christianity at the society level. If you plot the growth/shrinkage of extant religions on a graph, I just see no evidence that they're going to somehow regain their foothold. I think even a large, "come to Jesus" crisis moment would not literally drive people to Jesus, but would probably drive them to some other community at this point.
That said, I think individuals can probably solve the problem for themselves by turning to religion or some other existing institution. Will their kids be Christians in three or four generations? Perhaps not, but my thinking is that people will be better off in the short term (a life time or two) if they belong to something. And I think that being forced to adopt a worldview (whatever it may be) may be a feature, not a bug. Pressing everyone into a conformed mold is what allows the community to exist.
All of that said, I think the family is the answer. We see in society after society the organizing force starts with the family, and its often from the family that religion emerges (eg ancestor worship). Moving from the loose family connections we have now to a stronger, tribe model seems easier than trying to invent something entire new.
The Nordic countries are interesting, but I will say that I'm generally a skeptic. They are tiny populations (like, smaller than the Los Angeles metro area) with mostly ethnically homogenous populations. They also have tons of cash because, in some cases, like half their GDP is based on extractive industries like oil production and timber. I think if you start removing any piece of that equation it starts falling apart, which we're sort of seeing with all the push back there to immigration. I might be biased because I think northern European countries have been particularly aggressive at dismantling traditional institutions (religion, family), and because I see Southern Europe (Italy, Spain) as the ideal for living a good life, but it's hard for me to see how the Nordic countries could scale up to an actually diverse country like the US. But I could be wrong!
Yes, I'd love to meet up to discuss! I'll message you about that.
Questions I need to research: Do Italy and Spain have majorities that ascribe to traditional belief and practice? Do families need shared beliefs to maintain cohesion at the level of the extended family? (I've felt more distant from my extended family ever since I started expressing how my worldview has shifted, but I'm not sure if that distance is because of that or just because it's difficult to maintain closeness when everyone gets older and has too many kids to fit in one place anymore.) Are there beliefs that could be more appealing to a 21st century mindset, and what might those be?
If you two meet up, please record the convo and turn it into a Substack. Fascinating conversation and I want to hear more.
Come to SLC and join us Elissa!
And Jon, yeah, great questions. I should say that my preference for S. Europe may just be a cultural preference that I let color my view of unrelated things. Like, I love that the Spanish have boisterous four hour dinners at 10 pm etc. I have probably let the films of Fellini have more influence on me than is necessary lol. And so I may be looking at reasons to justify why I like those cultures so much, vs for example the Swedes who according to internet memes will apparently refuse to even offer you food if you visit them ha. What jerks!
That said, I do think that while religion is in decline in those areas, they are more tied to their institutions. Most Italians I've met still consider themselves catholics, even if they rarely attend, while that isn't necessarily the case for the northern Europeans I've met.
It's an interesting question about shared beliefs. Maybe a community is created by a shared overton window? Like, you can dissent with the group and still be a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a Democrat or a member of academia of whatever. But you can't dissent TOO much.
The Jewish perspective is interesting here, because it's all of these things but doesn't require all of these things to feel/ be Jewish and consider yourself a member of a/the community: a religion, a culture, a race. And then, even being "religious," going to temple, observing the commandments, etc., isn't always tethered to theology/ faith in the divine. I know many people who live a very Jewish life, but are agnostic/ sometimes even atheistic.
I think a big part of Jewish continuity in the last 100 years, but also for centuries even if they would have never used this language, is the porousness btw "culturally Jewish" and "religiously Jewish." People who are "culturally Jewish" still observe many holidays, and look towards institutions and traditions to ground their faith. But there is tons of creativity there, and without a central authority on the right/wrong way to do these things, that creativity is welcome in the grand scheme of things. And then there's the long tradition of dissent, question asking etc., as a big part of the Jewish meaning-making process...
Now don't get me wrong, the Jewish leaders consider Jews in a crisis in terms of participation in Jewish life... and lots of hang-wringing about the Jewish future in all directions...and this anxiety preceded the horrific, and deeply shameful for me, war happening, and the soul-searching and divisions its creating. So nobody has figured it all out. Certainly not us!
But I think the often effective blurring/ separation of culture and religion is relevant to other faith groups in how to bring some of the good parts of religion into the 21st century.
Last thought: I have met many people in the US from Latin America who feel similarly about Catholicism. They say it feels both cultural and religious--that fluidity is alive and keeps them engaged.
Super fascinating thoughts here. Honestly I think the way the Jewish world handles cultural vs religious identity is really enviable. I wish I was part of a community that had that. My background is in Mormonism, and while I'm sort of half in-half out of that, I don't think you can be a multigenerational cultural Mormon. Everyone who leaves, is fully gone — which I think is a shame. But I have noticed similar things re: catholicism.
Great piece!! I’ve really enjoyed your writing. I became a Christian at 18 and started going to church. It took a long time to get used to church life, but serving with other people to run bible studies and playgroups has created wide networks and deep connections with others that I would not have had otherwise. I’m a clinical psychologist in Australia and I frequently see people who are achingly lonely. I spend a lot of time encouraging them to join things, to show up, to love on others. We have to give in order to get. Connection can’t be delivered to your door.
Love this perspective! Any advice/observations on what has worked re: joining things and showing up?
Probably all the stuff you already know. There’s good evidence about forming friendships that’s especially important as an adult—it requires regular contact, so even if one time is terrible it doesn’t matter, and membership/being part of things/belonging. It’s the C.S. Lewis observation that I’ll mangle, that friendship is you both looking at a task together, not looking at each other. That’s why we make a lot of friendships in school and sports. It’s not all hanging on one glorious moment of banter. It’s what you captured in your article. Sometimes it’s just less sexy than that, just regularly turning up when you can’t be bothered. It’s making service and presence a priority.