Arthur Brooks said “the route to happiness goes through unhappiness and suffering” and I often wonder if what’s lacking in the discourse of happiness is how narrowly we define it. Or maybe the definition is fine, but happiness itself is held up as the ideal while forgetting wonder, awe, meaning, enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction. Heck, even the creative process is filled with moments of hell. Loved this piece, and the nuanced view of her comments.
Love that quote and Arthur Brooks generally. And you mentioning the creative process is an interesting point. I wonder if a singer like Chappell Roan feels happy while producing her music? I've never been a pop star but in my youth I was in some bands and it could be incredibly frustrating to make a song. I think when people say a creative work is "their baby" it implies love, but also perhaps that some blood/sweat/tears were involved in the making. I hadn't really thought about this until now!
Right? The process of writing a song/essay/book or really making any kind of art has at least a few hard moments. Most writers I know experience plenty of frustration, despair, self doubt, etc. all the same emotions that make parenting “hellish”. So, yeah. It’s interesting to hear someone who likely experiences those same emotions on a regular basis assume that parenting is somehow worse. In my experience, there are more similarities between creative work and parenting than there are differences.
For her to be happy and a mother would require a social commitment she finds repulsive and an inherent slowdown to her career, plus ideally a stable sense of self. There are about three layers between her and a perception of parenthood she'd find appealing.
The thing I'm also skeptical about though, is that these people told their mega popstar friend that they're unhappy and in hell. I doubt it. I think they described the difficulty of parenthood, and she said "sounds like hell, can't imagine being happy if I were you," having run that through her filters: being in a hetero relationship, having to maintain control over a diagnosed personality disorder (it's clear she...doesn't), and slowing down her meteoric rise. That's all okay! She's a great pop star, I like her songs and her stage show is pretty cool. No hate. I wouldn't want parenthood if I were her either.
It's just that I think she is interpreting, not reporting, what she hears, and the influences on her intepretation are obvious and personal, rather than a meaningful statement on parental happiness
Yeah, that's something that occurred to me too. Like, how many people have a friend who becomes famous and continue to confide in that friend in the same way? Just practically speaking you'll see the famous friend way less. So yeah, I agree that there seems to be some interpretation going on here.
Insightful. Personally, my goal when choosing to have children wasn’t to increase my own happiness, but rather to invest my time and effort in something of inherent and eternal value. I am grateful for the deep joy I’ve found in that, but also confident it has come about because my own pleasure was not my purpose.
I think for her, and for many other people nowadays, absence of pleasure on tap seemingly equates with pain, or "hell", and any commitment to others beyond immediate self shows a complete atomization of society used to catering to individuals only.
The problem is in the lack of those support networks, as you put it, that really matter. And it must start with a family, otherwise there are no building blocks around to actually put the proverbial village together with.
Too many people forget that their lives are longer than expected, and that beyond their 40th birthday lays a second half of life, where you have to learn how to wind down and unless you have built up a stock of relationships and family to be embedded in, you really will suffer.
I was definitely in that camp. When I was 25 I don't know if I really thought I'd even be alive until 40 lol. (Not that I was living dangerously, 40 just seemed so ancient). And now here I am at that stage, regretting not thinking ahead more haha.
People tend to forget or ignore the simple fact that two things can be true at the same time: the little anklebiters* drive you nuts and you wouldn't ever give them up. As simple as that.
*that's little buggers, to any British/Australian readers out there.
Roan gave into the same type of hyperbole and overgeneralization I often hear: “People who do ______ couldn’t possibly live meaningful lives, because I haven’t seen it.” It takes anecdotal experience and uses it to generalize to the whole of a population. Granted, we all do it. But, it's understandable that people would come to their own defense in stating that she has mischaracterized their experience.
I think more to your point, the happiness notion misses the point of building a village entirely. There is a fundamental objectification embedded in her comment. It subtly says “Children are only good if they have utility by creating joy in my life.” It inadvertently dehumanizes children.
Well I have a few and I agree there are a lot of sacrifices to be made with children. Doing things gets a lot slower and you don’t have the freedom to do whatever the heck you want that day. I’ve been pretty much consistently tired for almost a decade. And if your kids have a health scare, it is extremely stressful.
On the other hand, it offers a clear answer to the question of what you are doing it all for. There’s also the joy of having a house filled with life, as opposed to echoes. I recall that when we bought our house that the elderly sellers were happy to sell to a family.
I also consider it a long term investment in your old age, like a pension plan. A childless, sterile old age seems unbearably sad.
agreed on every count. Sometimes my wife will take the kids down to her parents house in a neighboring state, and I'll stay behind because I have work. Every time I think how awesome it's going to be to have a couple of days of bachelor life haha. But then within 24 hours I'm struck by how... empty the house feels without the family.
I agree with much of your thoughts, particularly about building supportive multigenerational community.
Also particularly taken with the beauty and truthfulness of this thought: "happiness or misery at any one moment is sort of irrelevant".
I do quibble with the idea that "evidence" suggests that people with children are happier. We live in a society that places SO much pressure and reward upon the IDEA of having children (without doing much to tangibly support parents). How could one not report greater happiness when conforming to the expectations of your parents, your church, your community, and your society? I'm a parent but lived 37 years without one, and feel confident my childfree self would be equally happy, but for the misery of being constantly made to feel I was going against the grain 😆
And lastly very much cosign the commenter above who remarked that being an artist is also hell sometimes!! We opt in for the hell we wish to firefight
It's an interesting dilemma, measuring happiness across lifestyle choices. Before I had kids I was generally not unhappy. In fact I loved a lot of aspects of my life, and still today miss many parts of that life. I think that at least for me, my sense is that kids add a layer of purpose/meaning, and that enriched my sense of satisfaction. But I think you're right that part of the equation here is external pressure, and that pressure can often become a source of frustration or friction.
Agree with your points but I wouldn’t assume this attitude is the main reason young people are avoiding children. For many the concern is less “children are hell” and more “children are financially impractical.” Even two incomes can be tight with the ballooning cost of housing (that our generation has been largely locked out of owning). So the prospect of needing to simultaneously pay for childcare (often as high as a month’s wage) and another bedroom can sound absurd.
Agreed. Financial concerns were one of the main reasons I delayed having kids! I think some people — not everyone, but some — overestimate the degree of financial security they need to start having a family. This was true for me, at least. I had a "capstone" mentality about having kids where you wait until your ducks are in a row.
That said, I do think the financial component is a real factor. I don't see really any systemic solution on the horizon, which is why I write about money every so often. If housing is going to be too expensive, and I want my kids to have housing, the solution is for me to provide it, or at least make a pretty serious contribution.
Arthur Brooks said “the route to happiness goes through unhappiness and suffering” and I often wonder if what’s lacking in the discourse of happiness is how narrowly we define it. Or maybe the definition is fine, but happiness itself is held up as the ideal while forgetting wonder, awe, meaning, enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction. Heck, even the creative process is filled with moments of hell. Loved this piece, and the nuanced view of her comments.
Love that quote and Arthur Brooks generally. And you mentioning the creative process is an interesting point. I wonder if a singer like Chappell Roan feels happy while producing her music? I've never been a pop star but in my youth I was in some bands and it could be incredibly frustrating to make a song. I think when people say a creative work is "their baby" it implies love, but also perhaps that some blood/sweat/tears were involved in the making. I hadn't really thought about this until now!
Right? The process of writing a song/essay/book or really making any kind of art has at least a few hard moments. Most writers I know experience plenty of frustration, despair, self doubt, etc. all the same emotions that make parenting “hellish”. So, yeah. It’s interesting to hear someone who likely experiences those same emotions on a regular basis assume that parenting is somehow worse. In my experience, there are more similarities between creative work and parenting than there are differences.
For her to be happy and a mother would require a social commitment she finds repulsive and an inherent slowdown to her career, plus ideally a stable sense of self. There are about three layers between her and a perception of parenthood she'd find appealing.
The thing I'm also skeptical about though, is that these people told their mega popstar friend that they're unhappy and in hell. I doubt it. I think they described the difficulty of parenthood, and she said "sounds like hell, can't imagine being happy if I were you," having run that through her filters: being in a hetero relationship, having to maintain control over a diagnosed personality disorder (it's clear she...doesn't), and slowing down her meteoric rise. That's all okay! She's a great pop star, I like her songs and her stage show is pretty cool. No hate. I wouldn't want parenthood if I were her either.
It's just that I think she is interpreting, not reporting, what she hears, and the influences on her intepretation are obvious and personal, rather than a meaningful statement on parental happiness
Yeah, that's something that occurred to me too. Like, how many people have a friend who becomes famous and continue to confide in that friend in the same way? Just practically speaking you'll see the famous friend way less. So yeah, I agree that there seems to be some interpretation going on here.
Insightful. Personally, my goal when choosing to have children wasn’t to increase my own happiness, but rather to invest my time and effort in something of inherent and eternal value. I am grateful for the deep joy I’ve found in that, but also confident it has come about because my own pleasure was not my purpose.
I love this perspective.
I think for her, and for many other people nowadays, absence of pleasure on tap seemingly equates with pain, or "hell", and any commitment to others beyond immediate self shows a complete atomization of society used to catering to individuals only.
The problem is in the lack of those support networks, as you put it, that really matter. And it must start with a family, otherwise there are no building blocks around to actually put the proverbial village together with.
Too many people forget that their lives are longer than expected, and that beyond their 40th birthday lays a second half of life, where you have to learn how to wind down and unless you have built up a stock of relationships and family to be embedded in, you really will suffer.
I was definitely in that camp. When I was 25 I don't know if I really thought I'd even be alive until 40 lol. (Not that I was living dangerously, 40 just seemed so ancient). And now here I am at that stage, regretting not thinking ahead more haha.
People tend to forget or ignore the simple fact that two things can be true at the same time: the little anklebiters* drive you nuts and you wouldn't ever give them up. As simple as that.
*that's little buggers, to any British/Australian readers out there.
What's the saying... the days are long but the years are short. The idea that two things can be true is such a good way to put it.
Roan gave into the same type of hyperbole and overgeneralization I often hear: “People who do ______ couldn’t possibly live meaningful lives, because I haven’t seen it.” It takes anecdotal experience and uses it to generalize to the whole of a population. Granted, we all do it. But, it's understandable that people would come to their own defense in stating that she has mischaracterized their experience.
I think more to your point, the happiness notion misses the point of building a village entirely. There is a fundamental objectification embedded in her comment. It subtly says “Children are only good if they have utility by creating joy in my life.” It inadvertently dehumanizes children.
That's such a good point about dehumanizing. I wish I had thought to put it that way, and I think you're right.
Well I have a few and I agree there are a lot of sacrifices to be made with children. Doing things gets a lot slower and you don’t have the freedom to do whatever the heck you want that day. I’ve been pretty much consistently tired for almost a decade. And if your kids have a health scare, it is extremely stressful.
On the other hand, it offers a clear answer to the question of what you are doing it all for. There’s also the joy of having a house filled with life, as opposed to echoes. I recall that when we bought our house that the elderly sellers were happy to sell to a family.
I also consider it a long term investment in your old age, like a pension plan. A childless, sterile old age seems unbearably sad.
agreed on every count. Sometimes my wife will take the kids down to her parents house in a neighboring state, and I'll stay behind because I have work. Every time I think how awesome it's going to be to have a couple of days of bachelor life haha. But then within 24 hours I'm struck by how... empty the house feels without the family.
I agree with much of your thoughts, particularly about building supportive multigenerational community.
Also particularly taken with the beauty and truthfulness of this thought: "happiness or misery at any one moment is sort of irrelevant".
I do quibble with the idea that "evidence" suggests that people with children are happier. We live in a society that places SO much pressure and reward upon the IDEA of having children (without doing much to tangibly support parents). How could one not report greater happiness when conforming to the expectations of your parents, your church, your community, and your society? I'm a parent but lived 37 years without one, and feel confident my childfree self would be equally happy, but for the misery of being constantly made to feel I was going against the grain 😆
And lastly very much cosign the commenter above who remarked that being an artist is also hell sometimes!! We opt in for the hell we wish to firefight
It's an interesting dilemma, measuring happiness across lifestyle choices. Before I had kids I was generally not unhappy. In fact I loved a lot of aspects of my life, and still today miss many parts of that life. I think that at least for me, my sense is that kids add a layer of purpose/meaning, and that enriched my sense of satisfaction. But I think you're right that part of the equation here is external pressure, and that pressure can often become a source of frustration or friction.
Agree with your points but I wouldn’t assume this attitude is the main reason young people are avoiding children. For many the concern is less “children are hell” and more “children are financially impractical.” Even two incomes can be tight with the ballooning cost of housing (that our generation has been largely locked out of owning). So the prospect of needing to simultaneously pay for childcare (often as high as a month’s wage) and another bedroom can sound absurd.
Agreed. Financial concerns were one of the main reasons I delayed having kids! I think some people — not everyone, but some — overestimate the degree of financial security they need to start having a family. This was true for me, at least. I had a "capstone" mentality about having kids where you wait until your ducks are in a row.
That said, I do think the financial component is a real factor. I don't see really any systemic solution on the horizon, which is why I write about money every so often. If housing is going to be too expensive, and I want my kids to have housing, the solution is for me to provide it, or at least make a pretty serious contribution.
For the sake of the kids I am glad Chappell Roan doesn’t have any.
haha