Every point in here is begging for an essay but I loved the brief commentary. As for footnote 2 on men merging more with their wive's family... I can see that, and the potential negative reasons for it. The point about women being caretakers that another commenter mentioned is also worth thinking about.
My husband and I are from opposite ends of the country, and our parents (and for me, most my siblings) still live in those states - Minnesota on my side, Texas on his. As we have been open to moving to be close to one side of the family, I admit to winning out, though perhaps that's a bad way to describe it. It came down to me as the primary caregiver desperately wanting both help with the kids, and also their ability to see aunts and uncles more frequently. Seeing as I'm cloer with my parents than his (as the one who would be facilitating more of the grandparent/grandchild interactions) and I have siblings, that trajectory makes sense to him as well. And yeah, he's also seen how though I'm one of four siblings, I may best fill the role of caretaker for my parents later on.
So, guys probably do have ways they could step up in their relationship tending and kinkeeping, but I think there's some practical and logistical factors at play keeping women more relationally tied to their own families. I'm sure dynamics could be totally reversed in different scenarios, too! Dispositions and family loyalty could be wildly varied from couple to couple.
All really good points. The fact that women have traditionally handled the domestic sphere is surely a factor. Perhaps the work women traditionally have done requires a specific type of network that family facilitates, but the work men's traditional work didn't (I say "traditionally" because as the other commenter pointed out, there's a scriptural element to this, suggesting this has been going on for a very long time).
I doubt there will ever be a fundamental shift on this. But just on a practical level it seems like a lot of guys don't do basic stuff. Like they never participate in the family group chat. Or they'll sit off by themselves on their phones during family gatherings. It's definitely not a universal thing, and I've been guilty of this myself from time to time, but enough people have mentioned it to me that I think it's not an isolated thing. I think maybe we guys just need to stop dragging our feet so much haha.
This was so fascinating! I loved what you said about the need for men in a village. I do wonder if the tendency of men to “join” their wives families is more because women tend to take on a greater role as caretakers of elders in a family as they age and so the husbands of these women naturally move into a supportive role to that. This is not to say men can’t be excellent elder caretakers but I do think that accounts a lot for the trend. Interestingly this phenomenon is reflected in the scriptural tradition in the phrase “ a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife.” Meaning more than just the act of a marriage occurs but that a man in a sense “leaves” his family in a way a woman doesn’t. That’s not to say it has to always manifest that way just that at a broad pattern of behaviour it does seem to work out that way.
That's a really interesting point about elder care. I hadn't really considered that, but it makes a lot of sense. And the scriptural component is also interesting; it's fascinating to me that we see a lot of societies that are generally patriarchal, and yet the matriarchal bonds are apparently so strong. Not sure what this means but it's given me plenty of food for thought.
Yes so true. Reading myself on this topic a bit right now. Italian culture (which is my roots) in its agrarian form appears at first glance highly patriarchal but on deeper analysis reveals matriarchal tendency as well. I have a hunch that the patriarchal aspects often just seem more obvious as they are on the surface and matriarchy gets embedded in deeper and in more hidden ways, less obvious ways that you have to dig a little to uncover but nonetheless are powerful….. it seems to manifest a bit like mycelium in a forrest.
Thanks! The political angle to me seemed relevant right now given the recent election etc. Most people I know across the political spectrum love their families, want kids, etc but the more politicized family issues become the less I'm afraid anything will actually get done.
Totally agree! These family issues are ideally something that should unite us across a political spectrum.
As a lefty person, I feel troubled at the idea that the joys of family (and of tradition!) are the domain of the political Right, and cannot be embraced by Leftists or left-of-center folks.
Every point in here is begging for an essay but I loved the brief commentary. As for footnote 2 on men merging more with their wive's family... I can see that, and the potential negative reasons for it. The point about women being caretakers that another commenter mentioned is also worth thinking about.
My husband and I are from opposite ends of the country, and our parents (and for me, most my siblings) still live in those states - Minnesota on my side, Texas on his. As we have been open to moving to be close to one side of the family, I admit to winning out, though perhaps that's a bad way to describe it. It came down to me as the primary caregiver desperately wanting both help with the kids, and also their ability to see aunts and uncles more frequently. Seeing as I'm cloer with my parents than his (as the one who would be facilitating more of the grandparent/grandchild interactions) and I have siblings, that trajectory makes sense to him as well. And yeah, he's also seen how though I'm one of four siblings, I may best fill the role of caretaker for my parents later on.
So, guys probably do have ways they could step up in their relationship tending and kinkeeping, but I think there's some practical and logistical factors at play keeping women more relationally tied to their own families. I'm sure dynamics could be totally reversed in different scenarios, too! Dispositions and family loyalty could be wildly varied from couple to couple.
All really good points. The fact that women have traditionally handled the domestic sphere is surely a factor. Perhaps the work women traditionally have done requires a specific type of network that family facilitates, but the work men's traditional work didn't (I say "traditionally" because as the other commenter pointed out, there's a scriptural element to this, suggesting this has been going on for a very long time).
I doubt there will ever be a fundamental shift on this. But just on a practical level it seems like a lot of guys don't do basic stuff. Like they never participate in the family group chat. Or they'll sit off by themselves on their phones during family gatherings. It's definitely not a universal thing, and I've been guilty of this myself from time to time, but enough people have mentioned it to me that I think it's not an isolated thing. I think maybe we guys just need to stop dragging our feet so much haha.
Yep, I've seen this lack of basic effort, myself. Definitely a both/and type of thing!
This was so fascinating! I loved what you said about the need for men in a village. I do wonder if the tendency of men to “join” their wives families is more because women tend to take on a greater role as caretakers of elders in a family as they age and so the husbands of these women naturally move into a supportive role to that. This is not to say men can’t be excellent elder caretakers but I do think that accounts a lot for the trend. Interestingly this phenomenon is reflected in the scriptural tradition in the phrase “ a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife.” Meaning more than just the act of a marriage occurs but that a man in a sense “leaves” his family in a way a woman doesn’t. That’s not to say it has to always manifest that way just that at a broad pattern of behaviour it does seem to work out that way.
That's a really interesting point about elder care. I hadn't really considered that, but it makes a lot of sense. And the scriptural component is also interesting; it's fascinating to me that we see a lot of societies that are generally patriarchal, and yet the matriarchal bonds are apparently so strong. Not sure what this means but it's given me plenty of food for thought.
Yes so true. Reading myself on this topic a bit right now. Italian culture (which is my roots) in its agrarian form appears at first glance highly patriarchal but on deeper analysis reveals matriarchal tendency as well. I have a hunch that the patriarchal aspects often just seem more obvious as they are on the surface and matriarchy gets embedded in deeper and in more hidden ways, less obvious ways that you have to dig a little to uncover but nonetheless are powerful….. it seems to manifest a bit like mycelium in a forrest.
The two threads you bring up here really resonate. Kinkeeping and family building are:
- For men and women to share equally, but just as importantly
- for the political Right and Left to share equally.
Thanks! The political angle to me seemed relevant right now given the recent election etc. Most people I know across the political spectrum love their families, want kids, etc but the more politicized family issues become the less I'm afraid anything will actually get done.
Totally agree! These family issues are ideally something that should unite us across a political spectrum.
As a lefty person, I feel troubled at the idea that the joys of family (and of tradition!) are the domain of the political Right, and cannot be embraced by Leftists or left-of-center folks.
Thought provoking, thanks for sharing.
"Kinkeeping" is such a great expression and invitation. Feels like a great way of framing some of the work Nancy Fraser refers to as "social glue".