Most people are not wealthy or able to selectively "build your own" lifestyle. Especially not the combo of living in the right place + having the right family that cares to be involved (most boomer grandparents are indifferent, from what I see in my peer group) + finding a magic job that pays the bills but doesn't involve emails or hours incompatible with a child's schedule.
We have chosen to stay close to family in the greater NYC area. There's definitely not a ton of independence for kids (and I didn't have all that much independence growing up in Brooklyn) BUT we have both sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles around, and one first cousin for my daughter, so far.
Neither of us could afford to live in NYC area without email jobs. It's very, very expensive. As far as living with family, one set of grandparents has a small apartment in the city, without room for us. The other set of grandparents has a home in the deep suburbs where there is even less freedom for our daughter than she currently has; it's like a moat in an island of cars and highways. No cousin has offered or is interested in living collectively.
I am Puerto Rican and note that kids raised in close contact with family are just generally happier, even though kids of immigrants (and thus, large intergenerational households) absolutely don't have the kind of "freedom" you talk about (extremely strict parents, no dating, no adventures... no nothing besides chores and obligations, lol). We could move to the country and do some kind of homestead, my husband would love a bigger garden.... That means leaving family behind. I am betting on family here. It's not a mistake - it's not a luxurious "choice" we're making to not live in the countryside. It's an intentional tradeoff.
Thanks for the comment! So many interesting ideas here that I love discussing!
I should say that I'm definitely not in favor of people moving to the countryside unless they have some very compelling reason to do so (eg like you inherited a functioning and profitable family farm or something). And as I mentioned in a footnote, I'm a city person personally, and I think cities offer far more opportunities than suburbs or rural places. I also think that if you have family in a place, that's a compelling reason to be there. It's why I moved to SLC, which is def not a perfect city. The mistake I made wasn't living in SLC generally, but choosing a house on a busy corner at the moment when I had the ability to make that choice. Now I can't afford to move so I'm stuck in this particular spot haha.
I think when it comes to cities, NYC is probably the best place for this. It sounds like maybe this wasn't the case for you (?), but many people I've known who grew up there were comparatively independent as kids. They were taking the subway, going to bodegas, etc. from a very young age — things that would have seemed unimaginable to me as a kid growing up in the CA suburbs.
I also hope I'm not coming off as condemning all laptop jobs, because that's literally what I have ha! It's a necessity of modern life. But I also think the laptop class sometimes doesn't acknowledge what the other options out there. I wrote a while back about how my plumber is the wealthiest guy I know. Using his plumbing income, he spent decades buying investment properties and now has a net worth of at least $20 million (it's probably much higher). The guy who replaced the windows on my house is similar. These guys are richer than I'll ever be. I'm not saying I wish I were a plumber, but I do think the laptop class A) looks down on the trades when it has no right to do so, and B) the children of the laptop class ought to be told about the other options. I had no idea you could make multiple six figures in a trade, but today I know multiple people doing that.
Ultimately, I would describe myself as a person who is insufficiently wealthily to build my own lifestyle, as you say. I chose a career that is generally low paying while requiring long hours (the inverse of what I'll tell my kids to do). What I was hoping to get across here is that I'll look at any shortcomings of my situation, ask how my choices either contributed to them or not, and then advise my kids to do things differently. It sounds simple, but I don't know if I've ever heard someone from the generation above me acknowledge that a major life decision they made was a mistake.
Love this back and forth, and the essay. Intriguing thought experiments. As for that last sentence, something my husband and I have done (and maybe our kids will do someday lol) is taken note of life decisions our parents made that might have been mistakes, or could have been changed somehow to make for a better childhood/stronger family/more satisfying upbringing. But we’ve never heard them acknowledge as much. More the “it is what is is in the professional world” mindset. “All choices are trade offs” is something I heard come up in Mary Harrington’s substack recently on how women can plan & craft a life that factors in motherhood. I think the same applies here. All choices are tradeoffs. It seems it’s easier to see in hindsight.
Yeah maybe the "tradeoff" language is actually better? An example is the college I went to, which was not as good a school as I probably could have gotten into (it was the school my parents wanted). I've long wondered if I should think of going there as a mistake, because maybe I would have gotten better jobs or whatever going to a better school. On the other hand, I met my wife at college, so I'm hesitant to call it a "mistake."
Maybe a better way to think of it is in terms of tradeoffs, since it really only matters as a case study for the future (I don't have a time machine to go back and change anything).
And that's super interesting about looking at your parents decisions. I think I might have to copy that idea
Most people make do with what they have. Most people do what's possible given their circumstances. Of course hindsight is 20/20! My dad once apologized to me for some parenting stuff and honestly I hated it! He worked his ass off for us. I could not accept his apology!!
That's a great point about hindsight. And yeah, I hope my parents don't apologize. I know there are adults out there who do want that from their parents, but I think mine did the best they could. Would I have made different decisions? Sure, and maybe I'll learn from that and do things differently in my life. But I want to extend some grace to my parents in the hope that my kids will be similarly understanding someday when they reflect on my choices.
I did take the bus and subway alone. But NYC is frankly not much fun for a teen with only a few dollars in her pocket. I went to the library, mall, and park mostly and carried snacks with me. My husband grew up in NJ burbs and had way more "fun" than I did tho that could also be a cultural difference. I definitely wasn't allowed to date, no parties, and watched my younger siblings all the time.
That's super interesting to hear! Whenever I go to NYC I'm always like, whoa this place seems like it would've been paradise for me when I was a bored teen. The fact that it sounds like we had similar impressions of our teenage environments, despite those environments being very different, is eye opening (and maybe speaks to the teenage mindset lol).
It would be an interesting project to actually try to quantitatively identify what the idea environment is for a family. Sounds like it'd incorporate features of NJ where your husband grew up, maybe some features of Old World cities like Paris, etc. I know there are urban designers who focus on families, but I'm only just now fully realizing that I can articulate what isn't ideal better than I can fully imagine what the perfect environment would look it.
Aug 25, 2023·edited Aug 25, 2023Liked by Jim Dalrymple II
Lol! NYC is actually VERY fun for a young 20 something with a job! I had 3 jobs in grad school across 2 boros and loved zipping around, exploring new neighborhoods, getting coffee at little shops. I just didn't have that freedom as a teen when it felt like adults controlled basically most of my life haha. Oh and I think... having been to Stockholm it's pretty close to ideal
New subscriber here reading some older posts. I think this essay makes a great point; it’s something my husband and I are discussing as we create a vision for our very young family’s future.
Incidentally, I came across a recent interview with Doucleff, and she *did* move to a smaller community in southern Texas, where she is better able to implement some of the ideals put forth in the book, including the one you discuss here.
Most people are not wealthy or able to selectively "build your own" lifestyle. Especially not the combo of living in the right place + having the right family that cares to be involved (most boomer grandparents are indifferent, from what I see in my peer group) + finding a magic job that pays the bills but doesn't involve emails or hours incompatible with a child's schedule.
We have chosen to stay close to family in the greater NYC area. There's definitely not a ton of independence for kids (and I didn't have all that much independence growing up in Brooklyn) BUT we have both sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles around, and one first cousin for my daughter, so far.
Neither of us could afford to live in NYC area without email jobs. It's very, very expensive. As far as living with family, one set of grandparents has a small apartment in the city, without room for us. The other set of grandparents has a home in the deep suburbs where there is even less freedom for our daughter than she currently has; it's like a moat in an island of cars and highways. No cousin has offered or is interested in living collectively.
I am Puerto Rican and note that kids raised in close contact with family are just generally happier, even though kids of immigrants (and thus, large intergenerational households) absolutely don't have the kind of "freedom" you talk about (extremely strict parents, no dating, no adventures... no nothing besides chores and obligations, lol). We could move to the country and do some kind of homestead, my husband would love a bigger garden.... That means leaving family behind. I am betting on family here. It's not a mistake - it's not a luxurious "choice" we're making to not live in the countryside. It's an intentional tradeoff.
Thanks for the comment! So many interesting ideas here that I love discussing!
I should say that I'm definitely not in favor of people moving to the countryside unless they have some very compelling reason to do so (eg like you inherited a functioning and profitable family farm or something). And as I mentioned in a footnote, I'm a city person personally, and I think cities offer far more opportunities than suburbs or rural places. I also think that if you have family in a place, that's a compelling reason to be there. It's why I moved to SLC, which is def not a perfect city. The mistake I made wasn't living in SLC generally, but choosing a house on a busy corner at the moment when I had the ability to make that choice. Now I can't afford to move so I'm stuck in this particular spot haha.
I think when it comes to cities, NYC is probably the best place for this. It sounds like maybe this wasn't the case for you (?), but many people I've known who grew up there were comparatively independent as kids. They were taking the subway, going to bodegas, etc. from a very young age — things that would have seemed unimaginable to me as a kid growing up in the CA suburbs.
I also hope I'm not coming off as condemning all laptop jobs, because that's literally what I have ha! It's a necessity of modern life. But I also think the laptop class sometimes doesn't acknowledge what the other options out there. I wrote a while back about how my plumber is the wealthiest guy I know. Using his plumbing income, he spent decades buying investment properties and now has a net worth of at least $20 million (it's probably much higher). The guy who replaced the windows on my house is similar. These guys are richer than I'll ever be. I'm not saying I wish I were a plumber, but I do think the laptop class A) looks down on the trades when it has no right to do so, and B) the children of the laptop class ought to be told about the other options. I had no idea you could make multiple six figures in a trade, but today I know multiple people doing that.
Ultimately, I would describe myself as a person who is insufficiently wealthily to build my own lifestyle, as you say. I chose a career that is generally low paying while requiring long hours (the inverse of what I'll tell my kids to do). What I was hoping to get across here is that I'll look at any shortcomings of my situation, ask how my choices either contributed to them or not, and then advise my kids to do things differently. It sounds simple, but I don't know if I've ever heard someone from the generation above me acknowledge that a major life decision they made was a mistake.
Love this back and forth, and the essay. Intriguing thought experiments. As for that last sentence, something my husband and I have done (and maybe our kids will do someday lol) is taken note of life decisions our parents made that might have been mistakes, or could have been changed somehow to make for a better childhood/stronger family/more satisfying upbringing. But we’ve never heard them acknowledge as much. More the “it is what is is in the professional world” mindset. “All choices are trade offs” is something I heard come up in Mary Harrington’s substack recently on how women can plan & craft a life that factors in motherhood. I think the same applies here. All choices are tradeoffs. It seems it’s easier to see in hindsight.
Yeah maybe the "tradeoff" language is actually better? An example is the college I went to, which was not as good a school as I probably could have gotten into (it was the school my parents wanted). I've long wondered if I should think of going there as a mistake, because maybe I would have gotten better jobs or whatever going to a better school. On the other hand, I met my wife at college, so I'm hesitant to call it a "mistake."
Maybe a better way to think of it is in terms of tradeoffs, since it really only matters as a case study for the future (I don't have a time machine to go back and change anything).
And that's super interesting about looking at your parents decisions. I think I might have to copy that idea
Most people make do with what they have. Most people do what's possible given their circumstances. Of course hindsight is 20/20! My dad once apologized to me for some parenting stuff and honestly I hated it! He worked his ass off for us. I could not accept his apology!!
That's a great point about hindsight. And yeah, I hope my parents don't apologize. I know there are adults out there who do want that from their parents, but I think mine did the best they could. Would I have made different decisions? Sure, and maybe I'll learn from that and do things differently in my life. But I want to extend some grace to my parents in the hope that my kids will be similarly understanding someday when they reflect on my choices.
I did take the bus and subway alone. But NYC is frankly not much fun for a teen with only a few dollars in her pocket. I went to the library, mall, and park mostly and carried snacks with me. My husband grew up in NJ burbs and had way more "fun" than I did tho that could also be a cultural difference. I definitely wasn't allowed to date, no parties, and watched my younger siblings all the time.
That's super interesting to hear! Whenever I go to NYC I'm always like, whoa this place seems like it would've been paradise for me when I was a bored teen. The fact that it sounds like we had similar impressions of our teenage environments, despite those environments being very different, is eye opening (and maybe speaks to the teenage mindset lol).
It would be an interesting project to actually try to quantitatively identify what the idea environment is for a family. Sounds like it'd incorporate features of NJ where your husband grew up, maybe some features of Old World cities like Paris, etc. I know there are urban designers who focus on families, but I'm only just now fully realizing that I can articulate what isn't ideal better than I can fully imagine what the perfect environment would look it.
Lol! NYC is actually VERY fun for a young 20 something with a job! I had 3 jobs in grad school across 2 boros and loved zipping around, exploring new neighborhoods, getting coffee at little shops. I just didn't have that freedom as a teen when it felt like adults controlled basically most of my life haha. Oh and I think... having been to Stockholm it's pretty close to ideal
I have never been to Stockholm, but I'm gonna bump it up on the list of dream destinations now!
New subscriber here reading some older posts. I think this essay makes a great point; it’s something my husband and I are discussing as we create a vision for our very young family’s future.
Incidentally, I came across a recent interview with Doucleff, and she *did* move to a smaller community in southern Texas, where she is better able to implement some of the ideals put forth in the book, including the one you discuss here.