The Mormon church is especially good at community. I grew up Christian in a rather Mormon area (Phoenix suburbs) and the level of community my Mormon peers had was incredible. Though I don’t believe the tenets of the religion, if I lived in an area with a lot of Mormons I would be tempted to join. I would love for my kids to have the good hearted, clean fun community my Mormon friends had growing up.
when I was growing up a lot of the non Mormon kids would go to dances and youth activities just for fun. I think the grown ups thought may the kids would covert eventually, which mostly didn't happen. But it was fun that everyone would go to stuff.
I'm in a similar situation. There is a conundrum that I view the Church as *my* community, and yet I do not believe the same things that binds that community together. But we can be a part of the community for whatever reasons and in whatever way we want. There are a class "believers" for whom the beliefs are really important and I don't want to mess with that, but I have my own reasons. There is some dissonance involved in participating this way, but I'm okay with that too. As you said, a robust community is not just a bunch of like-minded friends. It includes different people who are there for different reasons. It includes multiple generations, rich and poor, and even believers and unbelievers.
My late father used to rail against people like you attending church -- he was one for whom the beliefs were really important. Neither of his kids now attend church. I am now heavily involved in the astrology community, with others who share my current spiritual beliefs. In the past couple of years, though, I got involved with a non-religious women's community service group, and that has met certain needs for in-person contact that I wasn't getting met by interacting with other astrologers mostly online. That group has women with a variety of spiritual beliefs -- some into alternative spirituality like me, some conventionally Christian, and some nothing in particular.
Would a church populated by the children of people like you still need to be a church, or could it eventually just be a community?
That's a good question. Despite not being a believer I suspect that the beliefs are central to the survival of the culture, especially in a modern world with so much mobility (in the old world, you literally had a village). So I am definitely not an advocate of watering down the religious aspects of the community. I guess I have become a conservative in the sense that I would rather not mess (too much) with a formula that works.
This reminds me actually of my experiences among the over-the-top liberals who dominate the culture of the Pacific Northwest, where I live. Although these people are generally not formally religious, they are the absolute worst kind of religious nutjobs in every way but name. I know I will never be good enough for them no matter what I do — much like you will never be good enough for the church members like my dad no matter what you do. When it comes down to it, though, I would rather live in a blue state than a red state; I think the blues get enough right that I would rather deal with their unhinged zealot fringe than the alternative. I vote Democrat because the only thing worse than those people in charge is those people not in charge. So I can understand how someone would make a similar complicated decision in a religious context.
Lots of interesting ideas in this thread, but the idea that non-religious communities (eg political groups) adopt religious behaviors is so fascinating to me. I know I was kind of dismissive of them being ACTUAL religions in the post, but it's an interesting thought experiment to ponder what might happen over a few more generations.
Anyway, I also thought the idea of the "formula" is an interesting one. So, how much can you mess with it and still have it work. idk, but i think about it a lot.
agree with so much of this. I think a huge factor for me and my Jewish friends/ community is a shared calendar (true of course for people of many other faiths). Whether you observe Shabbat every week, which is traditionally done by sharing meals at home with others, or even just 5-7 holidays a year -- there is a collective agreement of when to hang out. It is one of those things that sounds simple, but really has profound implications as it protects time to gather and reflect in our age of busyness.
The calendar idea is something I hadn't thought of but which is such a cool and interesting idea. It makes me think that structure — chronologically or otherwise — is both what makes a community work, but also maybe what some chafe against. Anyway, now I'm going to spend all my time thinking about the idea of time/schedule/calendars in terms of religion and community ha
One of the reasons we stopped going to church is because it no longer resembled the community from growing up. For example, most events were sparsely attended and everyone left as soon as possible. My kids didn't have consistent Sunday school teachers because they couldn't find anyone to do it. For the children's activities, literal months would go by without any contact or activity and when they did happen they were poorly organized and little to no effort was made. I saw this in adult, teen, and children's activities and when i very actively tried to build community i was met largely with apathy. This did affect my whole family's mental health because we constantly heard that church was a good community but no one was willing to put in work for the community so it floundered.
It's possible that we just live in a bad spot, and this isn't an issue in other church communites, but I've seen evidence that people just aren't putting in the effort in other church communities, maybe just not to the same level as my area. I'll be curious to see if you experience the same level of community that you had growing up.
The Sunday school at my church also struggles to have consistent support. We try rotating parent teachers every week or month but I think it makes the program weaker. I feel bad I’m not able to commit to doing it more often.
Yeah, I think that's a real challenge in Mormonism and I think probably a lot of other religions. I guess my thought would be that that is not the right community. Like, maybe there is a different faith that offers a better experience. In my neighborhood, Mormonism is still the strongest single faith. But if I lived in, say, Rome I probably would have gravitated to Catholicism. The point being that in different settings different faiths are going to have different types of communities.
That is such an uncomfortable part of the whole thing for some people. It is easy to say, in a predominantly Christian community, that of course Christianity is the one true faith. How many of those people would still be Christian if they had been born in a part of the world where Islam or Hinduism is the most common faith? Being part of the dominant group makes one's life easier and provides the community benefits that this post speaks of. On the other hand, a Christian minority in a Muslim or Hindu region (or vice versa) would have the sort of community that conspiracy theorists have with one another -- our little group is right, but we cannot trust the outside world!
Great read Jim. Glad to see you’re finding peace with your spiritual calculus. That’s so important.
How do you handle the insincerity of being a doctrinal relativist in a religion that, when push comes to shove, believes in absolutes? I struggle with it. The resulting dissonance outweighs the village/service benefits for me every time, though those benefits are absolutely real as you’ve said, and Mormons are generally wonderful, kind people.
I also don’t think I could allow my kids (if I had them) to be taught religion from a place of certainty. I would think it would do more harm to their worldview than the service/village would do good. But I know that all my active + doctrinally doubtful Mormon friends have ways they handle the primary songs with their kids, lol. What’s your method?
In many ways Mormonism is the hardest religion to “go just for the village/service aspects” as we’ve had a long history of asking for complete sacrifice and consecration from our members. I’ve often wished I was raised Jewish so I could have a community and a calendar and spirituality without having to plant a flag in the ground about one true religions and savings ordinances and literal plans of salvation, all things that seem now to me like ridiculous, but-well-meaning prognostications at best and dangerous methods of control at worst.
A few thoughts. One is that while the church is rather absolutist, I guess I don't think it necessarily has to be a huge issue in practice. When I'm at the ward christmas party, we're not talking about DNA evidence supporting/contradicting the BoM. I think in practice most people aren't actually thinking about the doctine most of the time. (This is why, incidentally, I think the church's current doubling down on doctrine/temples/Jesus is such a huge strategic error. I don't think most people care about most of that stuff beyond basic things like love thy neighbor.)
In that Arthur Brooks interview I linked to, he talks about this, but basically says something along the lines of, "you'll never find an institution you completely agree with."
As for kids, I've talked about this with my 7 yr old. She's asked many times what I think about some church issue, and I consistently will just say I don't know. So for example, "what happens after we die?" "I don't know." I can teach my kid to be a patriotic American while also thinking critically about the good and bad in our society. I think of it similarly.
But there's another thing here, which is that I suspect high demand conformist communities are the strongest communities. If you are an anti-conformist (which I have tended to be) you are going to end up being anti community. The strongest Jewish communities I've seen, after all, are Hasidic communities. Meanwhile, many secular Jews I know are on the verge of losing whatever Jewish identity they have left (eg they married a non-Jewish person and their kids are not being raised Jewish etc). Same goes with Catholics. In fact, I think the only lapsed Catholics I know are our parents' generation. None of their kids even identify as Catholic. But meanwhile, conservative Catholicism is having a resurgence.
My conclusion is that an individualistic and relativististic worldview is at odds with a village-first worldview. So it's not just about showing up for church for service projects and trying to keep your opinions to yourself. It's about actually ~trying~ to conform. It's about trying to eradicate individualism from your worldview. Like a Medieval craftsman, you're building the metaphorical cathedral and it doesn't even occur to you to stamp your name on your work. I think in that framework, the idea that I would even have unique views that are separate from those of the community starts to make less and less sense.
I had an old seminary teacher that said that he'd go to church even if he was an atheist because church is good for you and for many of the reasons you mention in your article.
totally. It's interesting bc I know so many atheists who yearn for the experience of religion, but there just doesn't seem to be an option out there for that
There's this Joseph Smith quote: "a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation”
The practical, secular version of that would be atheism doesn't require anything of you so how can it give back to you?
And yeah, it's not a bad ward. I think most wards seem kind of diminished from when we were kids (at least based on what everyone tells me about their experiences) but it's better than nothing!
The three hours were broken into three different meetings. The first hour was a big group meeting with a few speeches (the Mormon equivalent of a pastor delivering a sermon). Then there was Sunday School, which was small classes, and finally an additional class broken down by gender ("Elders Quorum" for men, "Relief Society" for women). So there were opportunities to go to the bathroom between :)
Honestly it was sort of like being in high school, where every hour you go to a new class.
The new version cuts one of the third-hour classes.
Ok, that sounds more reasonable -- and more like what I grew up with as a Lutheran. We had a service of a little over an hour and a Sunday School hour. It was a big enough church that they had two mostly identical services, so you could choose whether to attend the 8:15 service before Sunday School or the 10:45 service after Sunday School.
Yes! I often say that the "village is at church." Our family is Roman Catholic and in our smaller midwestern suburb many of our neighbors attend church with us. It's quite similar to a LDS ward boundary, and that's partly why I think our particular community is as thriving and vibrant as it is. When I've had babies, people from church (sometimes strangers) have fed our family for months. We are are so grateful.
The most lonely, disregulated people I know have also been the most critical of religion, specifically the more traditional ones (Mormonism, Catholicism, certain Evangelical traditions). I am patiently waiting for people to make the connection.
Fellow SLCer here. My partner and I just had a baby and can’t find people. We’re both not only secular but were RAISED secular. I’ve nonetheless come to similar conclusions as you (in part bc of my psych major and subsequent clinical training— I see the research). I’ve considered going to a Quaker church bc of its friendliness to the secular and to many religions alike, and its commitment to social activism.I’ve also searched for a zen sangha but I’m the only one in my family with extensive study and practice there. My partner agrees with this endeavor but wouldn’t “sacrifice” the time to regularly go so I’m on my own!
Best wishes! After leaving the Episcopal church of my first 33 years, I found my way to Unitarian Universalist churches. They are excellent places for agnostics who feel positively about religion and/or mysticism, want a community, and are politically progressive. Oops, it turns out I'm not in that last category. But I'm doing okay there anyway.
I do wonder whether my kids will experience the quantifiable benefits of a religious upbringing that show up on the surveys you referenced, or if UUs are different enough to not share the active ingredients. I'm placing my bets on the former.
Although I'm sure I would be welcome ("All Are Welcome," after all) at an Episcopal church again, I just can't fake it. I can come as I am and refrain from discussing certain points of disagreement at a UU church without it hurting too much. But I was super earnest about Christianity for most of my life. At a familiar Christian service, I can't pretend to be a seeker, a noob, or even a denominationally adjacent tourist, as I was when moonlighting at Catholic and other churches. I know my stuff. But I can't trust its authority anymore. I can't respond to the invitation to worship, digest the Word, or take a sermon to heart even with the usual grain of salt. I'm not picking up what they're putting down.
More power to you if you can. I would not be displeased if my children became Christian at some point. If they can swallow Mormonism, so much the better. It has a lot of good cultural virtues.
I go to an Episcopal church here in Brooklyn with my son. It is a strong community and we’ve made a few strong friends there. I’ve been the parish treasurer for three years. My job is so consuming and requires some weekend travel - so it can be a struggle to be as committed as I’d like.
I’m not sure why you are joking about nonbinary people in your example of other non-religious communities.
In my life, the people from church are just so good at showing up when there’s a new baby, someone is sick, etc. (Not that other people don’t, but the church people are especially great.)
The Mormon church is especially good at community. I grew up Christian in a rather Mormon area (Phoenix suburbs) and the level of community my Mormon peers had was incredible. Though I don’t believe the tenets of the religion, if I lived in an area with a lot of Mormons I would be tempted to join. I would love for my kids to have the good hearted, clean fun community my Mormon friends had growing up.
when I was growing up a lot of the non Mormon kids would go to dances and youth activities just for fun. I think the grown ups thought may the kids would covert eventually, which mostly didn't happen. But it was fun that everyone would go to stuff.
We send our kids to LDS activities even though we’re Catholic. I want our kids to know the other kids in the neighborhood.
The LDS are very welcoming to our kids.
We intended to go to LDS church, in addition to Mass, with my mother-in-law who is LDS and lives with us. But church times conflict.
I'm in a similar situation. There is a conundrum that I view the Church as *my* community, and yet I do not believe the same things that binds that community together. But we can be a part of the community for whatever reasons and in whatever way we want. There are a class "believers" for whom the beliefs are really important and I don't want to mess with that, but I have my own reasons. There is some dissonance involved in participating this way, but I'm okay with that too. As you said, a robust community is not just a bunch of like-minded friends. It includes different people who are there for different reasons. It includes multiple generations, rich and poor, and even believers and unbelievers.
My late father used to rail against people like you attending church -- he was one for whom the beliefs were really important. Neither of his kids now attend church. I am now heavily involved in the astrology community, with others who share my current spiritual beliefs. In the past couple of years, though, I got involved with a non-religious women's community service group, and that has met certain needs for in-person contact that I wasn't getting met by interacting with other astrologers mostly online. That group has women with a variety of spiritual beliefs -- some into alternative spirituality like me, some conventionally Christian, and some nothing in particular.
Would a church populated by the children of people like you still need to be a church, or could it eventually just be a community?
That's a good question. Despite not being a believer I suspect that the beliefs are central to the survival of the culture, especially in a modern world with so much mobility (in the old world, you literally had a village). So I am definitely not an advocate of watering down the religious aspects of the community. I guess I have become a conservative in the sense that I would rather not mess (too much) with a formula that works.
This reminds me actually of my experiences among the over-the-top liberals who dominate the culture of the Pacific Northwest, where I live. Although these people are generally not formally religious, they are the absolute worst kind of religious nutjobs in every way but name. I know I will never be good enough for them no matter what I do — much like you will never be good enough for the church members like my dad no matter what you do. When it comes down to it, though, I would rather live in a blue state than a red state; I think the blues get enough right that I would rather deal with their unhinged zealot fringe than the alternative. I vote Democrat because the only thing worse than those people in charge is those people not in charge. So I can understand how someone would make a similar complicated decision in a religious context.
Lots of interesting ideas in this thread, but the idea that non-religious communities (eg political groups) adopt religious behaviors is so fascinating to me. I know I was kind of dismissive of them being ACTUAL religions in the post, but it's an interesting thought experiment to ponder what might happen over a few more generations.
Anyway, I also thought the idea of the "formula" is an interesting one. So, how much can you mess with it and still have it work. idk, but i think about it a lot.
agree with so much of this. I think a huge factor for me and my Jewish friends/ community is a shared calendar (true of course for people of many other faiths). Whether you observe Shabbat every week, which is traditionally done by sharing meals at home with others, or even just 5-7 holidays a year -- there is a collective agreement of when to hang out. It is one of those things that sounds simple, but really has profound implications as it protects time to gather and reflect in our age of busyness.
The calendar idea is something I hadn't thought of but which is such a cool and interesting idea. It makes me think that structure — chronologically or otherwise — is both what makes a community work, but also maybe what some chafe against. Anyway, now I'm going to spend all my time thinking about the idea of time/schedule/calendars in terms of religion and community ha
One of the reasons we stopped going to church is because it no longer resembled the community from growing up. For example, most events were sparsely attended and everyone left as soon as possible. My kids didn't have consistent Sunday school teachers because they couldn't find anyone to do it. For the children's activities, literal months would go by without any contact or activity and when they did happen they were poorly organized and little to no effort was made. I saw this in adult, teen, and children's activities and when i very actively tried to build community i was met largely with apathy. This did affect my whole family's mental health because we constantly heard that church was a good community but no one was willing to put in work for the community so it floundered.
It's possible that we just live in a bad spot, and this isn't an issue in other church communites, but I've seen evidence that people just aren't putting in the effort in other church communities, maybe just not to the same level as my area. I'll be curious to see if you experience the same level of community that you had growing up.
The Sunday school at my church also struggles to have consistent support. We try rotating parent teachers every week or month but I think it makes the program weaker. I feel bad I’m not able to commit to doing it more often.
Yeah, I think that's a real challenge in Mormonism and I think probably a lot of other religions. I guess my thought would be that that is not the right community. Like, maybe there is a different faith that offers a better experience. In my neighborhood, Mormonism is still the strongest single faith. But if I lived in, say, Rome I probably would have gravitated to Catholicism. The point being that in different settings different faiths are going to have different types of communities.
That is such an uncomfortable part of the whole thing for some people. It is easy to say, in a predominantly Christian community, that of course Christianity is the one true faith. How many of those people would still be Christian if they had been born in a part of the world where Islam or Hinduism is the most common faith? Being part of the dominant group makes one's life easier and provides the community benefits that this post speaks of. On the other hand, a Christian minority in a Muslim or Hindu region (or vice versa) would have the sort of community that conspiracy theorists have with one another -- our little group is right, but we cannot trust the outside world!
Great read Jim. Glad to see you’re finding peace with your spiritual calculus. That’s so important.
How do you handle the insincerity of being a doctrinal relativist in a religion that, when push comes to shove, believes in absolutes? I struggle with it. The resulting dissonance outweighs the village/service benefits for me every time, though those benefits are absolutely real as you’ve said, and Mormons are generally wonderful, kind people.
I also don’t think I could allow my kids (if I had them) to be taught religion from a place of certainty. I would think it would do more harm to their worldview than the service/village would do good. But I know that all my active + doctrinally doubtful Mormon friends have ways they handle the primary songs with their kids, lol. What’s your method?
In many ways Mormonism is the hardest religion to “go just for the village/service aspects” as we’ve had a long history of asking for complete sacrifice and consecration from our members. I’ve often wished I was raised Jewish so I could have a community and a calendar and spirituality without having to plant a flag in the ground about one true religions and savings ordinances and literal plans of salvation, all things that seem now to me like ridiculous, but-well-meaning prognostications at best and dangerous methods of control at worst.
A few thoughts. One is that while the church is rather absolutist, I guess I don't think it necessarily has to be a huge issue in practice. When I'm at the ward christmas party, we're not talking about DNA evidence supporting/contradicting the BoM. I think in practice most people aren't actually thinking about the doctine most of the time. (This is why, incidentally, I think the church's current doubling down on doctrine/temples/Jesus is such a huge strategic error. I don't think most people care about most of that stuff beyond basic things like love thy neighbor.)
In that Arthur Brooks interview I linked to, he talks about this, but basically says something along the lines of, "you'll never find an institution you completely agree with."
As for kids, I've talked about this with my 7 yr old. She's asked many times what I think about some church issue, and I consistently will just say I don't know. So for example, "what happens after we die?" "I don't know." I can teach my kid to be a patriotic American while also thinking critically about the good and bad in our society. I think of it similarly.
But there's another thing here, which is that I suspect high demand conformist communities are the strongest communities. If you are an anti-conformist (which I have tended to be) you are going to end up being anti community. The strongest Jewish communities I've seen, after all, are Hasidic communities. Meanwhile, many secular Jews I know are on the verge of losing whatever Jewish identity they have left (eg they married a non-Jewish person and their kids are not being raised Jewish etc). Same goes with Catholics. In fact, I think the only lapsed Catholics I know are our parents' generation. None of their kids even identify as Catholic. But meanwhile, conservative Catholicism is having a resurgence.
My conclusion is that an individualistic and relativististic worldview is at odds with a village-first worldview. So it's not just about showing up for church for service projects and trying to keep your opinions to yourself. It's about actually ~trying~ to conform. It's about trying to eradicate individualism from your worldview. Like a Medieval craftsman, you're building the metaphorical cathedral and it doesn't even occur to you to stamp your name on your work. I think in that framework, the idea that I would even have unique views that are separate from those of the community starts to make less and less sense.
I had an old seminary teacher that said that he'd go to church even if he was an atheist because church is good for you and for many of the reasons you mention in your article.
totally. It's interesting bc I know so many atheists who yearn for the experience of religion, but there just doesn't seem to be an option out there for that
There's this Joseph Smith quote: "a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation”
The practical, secular version of that would be atheism doesn't require anything of you so how can it give back to you?
Always happy to have someone as thoughtful as you as a co-religionist, Jim. Hope your local community is treating you well.
Thank you!
And yeah, it's not a bad ward. I think most wards seem kind of diminished from when we were kids (at least based on what everyone tells me about their experiences) but it's better than nothing!
Good grief to the three-hour LDS services. No wonder they don't allow coffee -- most coffee drinkers would need a bathroom break before that long.
LOL.
The three hours were broken into three different meetings. The first hour was a big group meeting with a few speeches (the Mormon equivalent of a pastor delivering a sermon). Then there was Sunday School, which was small classes, and finally an additional class broken down by gender ("Elders Quorum" for men, "Relief Society" for women). So there were opportunities to go to the bathroom between :)
Honestly it was sort of like being in high school, where every hour you go to a new class.
The new version cuts one of the third-hour classes.
Ok, that sounds more reasonable -- and more like what I grew up with as a Lutheran. We had a service of a little over an hour and a Sunday School hour. It was a big enough church that they had two mostly identical services, so you could choose whether to attend the 8:15 service before Sunday School or the 10:45 service after Sunday School.
I know which one I'd choose haha (the later one)
Yes! I often say that the "village is at church." Our family is Roman Catholic and in our smaller midwestern suburb many of our neighbors attend church with us. It's quite similar to a LDS ward boundary, and that's partly why I think our particular community is as thriving and vibrant as it is. When I've had babies, people from church (sometimes strangers) have fed our family for months. We are are so grateful.
The most lonely, disregulated people I know have also been the most critical of religion, specifically the more traditional ones (Mormonism, Catholicism, certain Evangelical traditions). I am patiently waiting for people to make the connection.
Fellow SLCer here. My partner and I just had a baby and can’t find people. We’re both not only secular but were RAISED secular. I’ve nonetheless come to similar conclusions as you (in part bc of my psych major and subsequent clinical training— I see the research). I’ve considered going to a Quaker church bc of its friendliness to the secular and to many religions alike, and its commitment to social activism.I’ve also searched for a zen sangha but I’m the only one in my family with extensive study and practice there. My partner agrees with this endeavor but wouldn’t “sacrifice” the time to regularly go so I’m on my own!
There’s a distinction between LDS and Mormons.
The LDS church is a religion. The Mormons are a people.
Mormons were shaped by a shared ancestry and culture. Polygamy helped distinguish the Mormons both culturally and genetically from other Americans.
I’m not LDS. But I am a Mormon. They are my people. Mormons are my ancestors, my extended family, and my friends.
Best wishes! After leaving the Episcopal church of my first 33 years, I found my way to Unitarian Universalist churches. They are excellent places for agnostics who feel positively about religion and/or mysticism, want a community, and are politically progressive. Oops, it turns out I'm not in that last category. But I'm doing okay there anyway.
I do wonder whether my kids will experience the quantifiable benefits of a religious upbringing that show up on the surveys you referenced, or if UUs are different enough to not share the active ingredients. I'm placing my bets on the former.
Although I'm sure I would be welcome ("All Are Welcome," after all) at an Episcopal church again, I just can't fake it. I can come as I am and refrain from discussing certain points of disagreement at a UU church without it hurting too much. But I was super earnest about Christianity for most of my life. At a familiar Christian service, I can't pretend to be a seeker, a noob, or even a denominationally adjacent tourist, as I was when moonlighting at Catholic and other churches. I know my stuff. But I can't trust its authority anymore. I can't respond to the invitation to worship, digest the Word, or take a sermon to heart even with the usual grain of salt. I'm not picking up what they're putting down.
More power to you if you can. I would not be displeased if my children became Christian at some point. If they can swallow Mormonism, so much the better. It has a lot of good cultural virtues.
I go to an Episcopal church here in Brooklyn with my son. It is a strong community and we’ve made a few strong friends there. I’ve been the parish treasurer for three years. My job is so consuming and requires some weekend travel - so it can be a struggle to be as committed as I’d like.
I’m not sure why you are joking about nonbinary people in your example of other non-religious communities.
In my life, the people from church are just so good at showing up when there’s a new baby, someone is sick, etc. (Not that other people don’t, but the church people are especially great.)